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    Sailerius
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:23 pm
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Let me preface this by saying that I love this site. I've been involved in the community since RMXP.net was in its heyday and I joined .org shortly after it launched. I was a staff member on and off for four years under three different administrations and I've participated in and ran several events over the years. When .org had its first donation drive, I became a sponsor within 20 minutes of the topic going up. Of all the communities I've been a part of, I've always felt at home here and found that the atmosphere of development and feedback has been the strongest. I've learned a lot about designing, developing, and refining games from the other users here.

But some recent events have led me to start to feel like the site is moving in a different direction than the one I've supported all these years. Although I respect that the staff are trying new things with the Construct 2 contest, I feel like it's not in line with what this site is about. The marginalization of RPG Maker and certain posts by staff members makes it feel like the site has sold out and makes me feel like a second class citizen for not going along with it.

I understand that some people don't like RPG Maker because it's too restricting or "for kids", but the fact of the matter is that Construct 2 is more restricting and makes it even harder to make a serious, well-polished game than RPG Maker. It's not that I refuse to use anything but RM, it's that complexity of RPGs facilitates the sort of in-depth discussion, debate, and dedication that has characterized this community since its inception. Construct 2 is for making casual browser games, something you play for five minutes and forget about. More to the point, those kinds of game don't facilitate the kind of in-depth discussion that a community thrives on.

Furthermore, I was taken by surprise when the site decided to host a contest for Construct 2 during the same month that RM Ace came out, which sparked a huge surge of revitalized interest and fresh blood in the RM community, resulting in a huge missed opportunity for the site to ride the wave of renewed interest.

I guess my point is that I'm confused about the direction this site is taking because it seems completely at odds with what this community was founded on and what has driven it and kept it alive for these past few years.

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    Bob Thulfram
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:32 pm
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So why not do a RPG Maker VX Ace contest after the Construct one is done?

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    Fusty
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:43 pm
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I think this thread is pretty much going to get the same responses as the one you linked to.
Other engines are appearing on the site, so what?
There are still plenty of people who use RM and I believe it will remain an important part of this site for quite some time.
I really don't see what's wrong with broadening the range of the site, a little change is good every once and a while~

Also, I think that "certain post" was simply meant to encourage people to explore something new, using RM certainly doesn't make you a "second class citizen".


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    bacon
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:59 pm
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yeah you might get the same responses.

Quote:
But some recent events have led me to start to feel like the site is moving in a different direction than the one I've supported all these years. Although I respect that the staff are trying new things with the Construct 2 contest, I feel like it's not in line with what this site is about.

I would definitely say we are moving in a different direction and i dont think anyone would deny that. But who says that direction is better/worse than the direction we are heading now?
The site core message imo, despite all the past drama that muddies it up, is to provide a game making community that is both extremely friendly and extremely interested in giving solid critique. I think its great that we are expanding because it invites people from sites and angles to the site.

Quote:
I understand that some people don't like RPG Maker because it's too restricting or "for kids", but the fact of the matter is that Construct 2 is more restricting and makes it even harder to make a serious, well-polished game than RPG Maker. It's not that I refuse to use anything but RM, it's that complexity of RPGs facilitates the sort of in-depth discussion, debate, and dedication that has characterized this community since its inception. Construct 2 is for making casual browser games, something you play for five minutes and forget about. More to the point, those kinds of game don't facilitate the kind of in-depth discussion that a community thrives on.

I dont think that any one of the staff thinks that RPGMaker is for kids. Sure, I think that it attracts a lot of kids, but i dont think its not a powerful engine. I think RPG is a engine for making an RPG and thats really about it. That doesn't mean that it can't make a great RPGgame, i just would be skeptical if it could make a great platformer or a great 3rd person shooter. I wouldn't make an RPG with Construct either. (Again im sure you can but it would probably be easier with RPGMAKER). Instead of falling into a genre niche, we should be catering to all types and genres whether it be RTS or RPG or that tiny indie tower defense game.

Also introducing these genres brings even more discussions.

Quote:
Furthermore, I was taken by surprise when the site decided to host a contest for Construct 2 during the same month that RM Ace came out, which sparked a huge surge of revitalized interest and fresh blood in the RM community, resulting in a huge missed opportunity for the site to ride the wave of renewed interest.

The Construct 2 contest has brought tons and tons of life back into the community and has brought a surge of activity. There is renewed interest here as well, its just not RPGMaker geared its more Construct 2 geared. And thats not bad.
We also aren't trying to shun out the RM ACE people either, we would just rather focus on one thing at a time.

Quote:
I guess my point is that I'm confused about the direction this site is taking because it seems completely at odds with what this community was founded on and what has driven it and kept it alive for these past few years.

Again, I think our message has always been toprovide a game making community that is both friendly and solid. IMO that has always been the light at the end of the tunnel. But again, all of this is my opinion and speculation so idk.

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    Amy
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:04 pm
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Anything I could say on the matter will just be repeating this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76310

RPG maker is in no way being marginalized. It is still exactly the same as it was, but we offer other things for those who wish to use them.

I personally still use RPG Maker and have not done more than dabble in Construct 2.


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    rosareven
  Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:12 pm
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In regards to your confusion Sailerius, my impression with the direction of HBGames is that it is now an engine-neutral site for all game makers who take game making as a casual hobby. I don't use RPG Maker not because I find it limiting, but purely because it is geared towards turn-based combat and I want to do action RPG style combat. Action combat will require fiddling of scripts in RPG Maker, whereas that action combat element can be done swimmingly in other action game based engines. In other words, it's my personal preference in the system that cause me to reject RPG Maker. No engine is perfect and there are going to be some engines better for particular jobs, as people here have mentioned in other threads.

Right now I can understand your concern that HBGames is looking quite biased towards Construct 2. It's a natural thing that happens when a community is accepting a new toy into its family. After the hype is over, it'll be just another engine, just another choice, with its pros and cons for people with special needs to consider. Any opportunity that brings the community lively again though, is a good opportunity.


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    Venetia
  Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:22 pm
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Sailerius wrote:
The marginalization of RPG Maker and certain posts by staff members makes it feel like the site has sold out and makes me feel like a second class citizen for not going along with it.

Don't take me so seriously.
We are running a contest, and I am hyping the contest, so I say things that hype the contest.

We changed our name to HBGames long ago because we hope to be multi-format, and allow many types of games from many different engines.

I personally appreciate Construct 2 to be a superior engine than RMXP or RMVX, mostly because the RM* series is mostly a one-trick pony, and C2 is more versatile for making a broader range of games.

C2's creations are also more appealing to the site, as you can play them in-browser. We're going to be adding an arcade soon. We wouldn't have ever been able to do that by focusing only on RM* games.

You cannot gauge professionalism in a game by how long it is or whether or not it's an RPG.

In any case, it doesn't mean that I'm looking to completely abandon the software our site's focused on for nearly a decade. And it wouldn't matter if >I< did anyway ...
Most of the other staff don't even use C2. And personally, I don't even have time enough in my day to make games at all, regardless of engine.
Some of our staff prefer GameMaker too.

Seems to me like it's a better idea to have staff that differ in opinion so we can keep this an open forum, suited for any indie game maker.

I don't know why everyone is so antsy about our "abandoning" this or that.
Keep an open mind, guys.
We're not going to turn ANYONE away.

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    Venetia
  Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:33 pm
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P.S.:
Sailerius wrote:
I guess my point is that I'm confused about the direction this site is taking because it seems completely at odds with what this community was founded on and what has driven it and kept it alive for these past few years.

Our site was founded on making games.
We've always been driven to have our members making games.
We are still focused on our members making games.
I don't see how this has changed.

It's like getting anxious about your favorite sandwich shop adding soup to the menu.
They still serve sandwiches.
Why worry that they expanded their menu?

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    BlueScope
  Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:05 am
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Personally, I think this contest is the best thing that happened to this community in a while. Not because we now got a handful of members we'll never see again after judging, or because we successfully whored us out as C2 fans... it's a contest that aroused a great deal of interest, allowed basically any kind of game and has a great variety of prices. It shouldn't make a difference whether you do this contest with RMVXPA or C2, but if you take a look at the astonishing variety and diversity of entries, you won't find anything close to it in RM-contests.

I agree that C2 is more limited, and that you won't construct epically long games with it. Still, it's an engine that makes game design approachable from an entire new side. It's a mile ahead of Game Maker, and lots of miles from any kind of RPG Maker instance as far as the indie factor goes... it's a step away from the same kind of game over and over again that we've seen with RMXP especially, and therefore, it might finally make hbgames.org the multi-platform community it wants to be.

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    Juan J. Sánchez
  Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:25 am
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I don't think it's going to become a Construct 2 site. It's basically a site to fill whatever your needs are. I'm using DragonFireSDK, and I'm probably the only one here who's doing so, but I've still gotten a lot of help from this site. When I hosted my art contest, five contestants showed up. When I've posted my music, people have given me feedback. RadethDart made a logo for me. As you see, there's a lot of support coming from this site, whether you're using RPG Maker, Construct, or something else, like DragonFireSDK.

The other point I wanted to make is that over the last few months, the site has been at an all time high. There's lots of new members, lots of projects, and lots of activity. This means that, whatever your project is, it will gain more publicity, and even beyond your engine's community. I feel like for the first time this site is actually measuring up to it's name: Home Brew Games.


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    So fist
  Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:58 pm
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Quote:
I understand that some people don't like RPG Maker because it's too restricting or "for kids", but the fact of the matter is that Construct 2 is more restricting and makes it even harder to make a serious, well-polished game than RPG Maker.


Odd analysis. You dislike that people look at that engine with a smug dismissive attitude, and then you take the same attitude toward this engine. A vicious cycle I guess. Construct 2 supports pixel based movement, collision, basic physics via top down or platforming, and mouse controls natively. It doesn't have a script console but you can add plugins using Javascript. It can be ported to several different platforms either mobile or browser based. It is a different tool for a different job. If I'm planning on making a zelda style game, or a platform, or some top down or sidescrolling or platforming shooter, or even a point and click adventurer, I'm picking construct.

If I'm making something that requires tile based movement, that requires deep database entries, and an out of the box structure for an rpg for a pc based platform then frankly I'll use RPG maker.

As far as seriousness of the product is concerned that bears little on the engine. What matters is the ability of the story teller to advance their themes through the medium. That is why I've always known the smug naysayers of any engine to generally be wrong on that count. Hell Regi's Newt flash game had more personality and atmosphere than a whole bunch of projects I've seen and that shit was just text and music. Size doesn't always equal depth and medium doesn't mean a limititation. Case in point, Crime and Punishment, a bona fide canon of literary history, was published as a serial in a pulpy lit mag back in its day.


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    So fist
  Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:13 pm
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Quote:
makes it feel like the site has sold out and makes me feel like a second class citizen for not going along with it.


Sold out? How about buying in to help out indie developers. Scirra is basically a two man shop, it's about as indie as it gets. The developers in this case are also very responsive to their users when they give feedback and suggestions, and are genuinely constantly trying to improve upon their work. Hell since I got the trial I've had to update at least three times for more recent builds with various improvements. Aren't these the type of developers we ought to support?


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    BlueScope
  Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:39 am
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So fist wrote:
Quote:
makes it feel like the site has sold out and makes me feel like a second class citizen for not going along with it.


Sold out? How about buying in to help out indie developers. Scirra is basically a two man shop, it's about as indie as it gets. The developers in this case are also very responsive to their users when they give feedback and suggestions, and are genuinely constantly trying to improve upon their work. Hell since I got the trial I've had to update at least three times for more recent builds with various improvements. Aren't these the type of developers we ought to support?

Addendum: Compared to Enterbrain, who is charging 90 bucks for a program we've already seen a few years ago... at least 95 per cent or so. And it's not like anyone ever got feedback responses from them.

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    Glitchfinder
  Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:14 am
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BlueScope wrote:
So fist wrote:
Quote:
makes it feel like the site has sold out and makes me feel like a second class citizen for not going along with it.


Sold out? How about buying in to help out indie developers. Scirra is basically a two man shop, it's about as indie as it gets. The developers in this case are also very responsive to their users when they give feedback and suggestions, and are genuinely constantly trying to improve upon their work. Hell since I got the trial I've had to update at least three times for more recent builds with various improvements. Aren't these the type of developers we ought to support?

Addendum: Compared to Enterbrain, who is charging 90 bucks for a program we've already seen a few years ago... at least 95 per cent or so. And it's not like anyone ever got feedback responses from them.


Also, note that ACE is mostly VX and XP, and is $30 more expensive for what, as best I can tell, are mostly superficial changes that make little difference compared to what I can do with the program using Ruby.

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    joannesalfa
  Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:26 pm
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I don't believe RPG maker is for "kids" this is site is about indie game development. Every game engines are subjectives because are just tools, like Construct 2 is a combination wrench, RPG Maker is a ratchet wrench, other engines are kind of wrenchs and a custom engine is like to create an own wrench. The people only are interesed about the completed games, it doesn't matter which is engine created this game, it depends how is game so very good or so bad.


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    bluehazed
  Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:53 am
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While I don't use any of these engines and don't particularly care for them (this is just personal preference, really)

I don't see what the issue is with organizing subforums with dedicated support if the userbase is there; in terms of support... don't judge an engine or a library or whatever by how well/often you can/will use it, but how well or how much of a userbase does.

Hosting this project also encourages development, creativity, and generally pushes stuff into a good direction. They're giving away free shit for you to create something fun, and it really only benefits the community.

It's still hbgames.org, no? What's wrong with holding and advertising a cool contest?

PS: and I only like to use C or C++ (god forbid I have to use it though... while the language isn't lazy it lets the programmer be lazy)[*]

*I didn't want admit it, but there are some things that C++ heads up just implements better, for example my web browser has a list of top level domains to search through; this is only 262 items in linear time but larger lists could be an issue; searching sdt::set in C++ is done in O(log n) instead of 0(n).

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    Amy
  Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:42 pm
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I know this isn't so much relevant to this thread, but just because it's probably going to come up at some point, the new arcade is not just for Construct games, but for any game that can be played in the browser (currently any HTML5 or Flash game). It is not just a Construct playground.


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