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    Me(tm)
  Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:04 pm
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It's so funny that every time something like this is mentioned, the same discussion emerges, only the participants change. Where do I stand? Hard to tell.

To all those in favour
It seems that your group exists of two large groups of users and one minority. The first one are the people that don't seem to be able to release games, then there are the noobs who tell us they will only use it to learn and the minority group either doesn't care because their game is crap/completely original or because they think there is no way to fix this. If you don't release games, stop talking. If you're a noob and you are telling us you just want to learn from it, shut up we don't believe you anyway, and respect to the minority group.

You see, many are missing the point here. If learning and sharing all game resources was a good thing, why include encryption at all? Right, because you simply don't want people to do certain things.

Regarding to cheats, okay I don't care if you would open up my game and cheat, because I think you suck since you were not able to finish the game the way I designed it. I am sure it will bore you at some moment, but you'll see that for yourself.

Regarding to sprites, although people can still steal sprites by smart print screening (begging for no fog overlay or transparent sprites and/or picture overlays) doesn't mean that you should steal or that you should make the way to obtain the sprites easier. Most people will only take that particular sprite with print screening, while now they'll take it all. I just want those sprites to be my game only, unless I release them on the forums. Even though most people won't get away with it, does not mean that they won't try, costing me my time, energy and effort to set it straight. I want THEM to make effort stealing it, not simple executing a program and then copy and pasting.

Regarding to scripts, when it comes to scripts, I am always divided, since the learning factor from a script is much higher then from a sprite. However, certain systems I worked hard on for hours, I don't want to see in other games. It is my system,  not theirs. If I think it is time that the world may use it, I'll release it. In general, these days people suck. I am not talking about those great designers, but people that are usually called noobs. Make me this script, make me that system... They don't try and learn themselves, which would be another reason NOT to be able to decrypt games, since it demotivates to learn new things and create new skills.

Regarding to online games, all the orpg's I know are protected with some kind of anti hacking program. Why? Well, in an offline game, if you cheat, you'll just fuck it up for yourself. But now you will fuck up the whole community playing that game. It's sad and I know for a fact that there are people out there fucking up games because that's their adrenaline catalyst, they like it, they do it for fun. I don't want those people fucking up my ORPG, simply because it took me time to create it.

So, what do I do? Well, I think since I have an ORPG and I can script pretty well, it comes to the following: I have to complete what I was doing. Before, all the data was on the clients computer etc. etc. This has changed in NP3+. In my game, all the map and event data is on the server. The clients have copies of the map, but everything is validated on the server. If the client is on a position that is blocked, he's a cheater. If a client get's an item without any reason, he's a cheater. If a client is leveling up without killing monsters, he's a cheater. I have to set up this enormous anti cheat system, and even then I'm not finished. I need to port my scripts to a dll, and make sure only the calls are in the game. This way people can only steal the exact SAME copy of my scripts, thus making it very noticeable.
I could go on like this, but as you can see. In order to keep my players faithfully and trustworthy, I need to encrypt my game. People are bad by nature, if they get the chance...

At vgvgf and others, we should join up and work on this together. We need a system that can not be broken by any NORMAL user and is easy update-able. Also, we might even just go with a new rmxp, without RGSSdll :P

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    Necro_100000
  Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:24 pm
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Ehhhhh... User customization? I personal believe that tons of RMXP.org forum games are to short to errr really care to hack. If you made a game in a week and it got hacked... who cares...? Also It might allow the user customization! They can change music out and stuff? I mean personally I would love to play William Tell Overture to Garland in Final fantasy 1 but hell I have an MP3 Player and headphones to.

To be honest though I'm releasing a game that took 1 year to make and still getting worked on and its on 2k3 with no encryption so I think I'm just bitter and have grown to the fact that people will be able to hack my game. Good thing it so ancient that no one has 2k3 to hack it anymore! lol.

As for Online games however... I would totally have to agree and I would be pissed.... Then again lets face it. IT happens to EVERY GAME at SOME TIME. Hell I've good tons of free stuff from developers and I know ever single one of you nice people have some to! (Break out the IPods and don't lie to me people!) So I think it might be some sick sick play on karma. Hmmm I know I've had it coming.

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    Der Drake
  Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:25 am
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Quote:
Or as stated previously in the thread for the purpose of better encryption? The guy included his source so people could look at it and learn to protect there games.

That's a farce. A while back we actually considered releasing something similar (and only barely decided against doing it). We also came up with some mock explanations like 'improving' the encryption. Honestly though, in order to reverse engineer something like this you must take a look at the machine code for the original decrypter. And if you do, you will invariably have noticed how pointless such an 'encryption' scheme really is (because you could do exactly the same with any other encryption).

The truth is, that if you are new to reverse engineering, it's a tremendous success to finally have a working decrypter and getting recognition for your hard work seems like a very appealing prospect. There really is no way of designing a 'more secure' encryption algorithm and I'd be grateful if no one attempted to do this.

My own reason here, is that I don't use windows and actually have to get a decrypted version of a game in order to play it. I don't cheat, steal resources, or whatever it is that is so much of a problem for you guys, but now enterbrain will most likely be forced to release an 'updated' encryption (for those interested: the rgssad format already includes a version number currently set at 1).

Quote:
Rmxp encrypts all files in the RGSSAD file using XOR encryption and a key which by default is 0xDEADCAFE(Some joke from enterbrain here? Dead Cafe?) in hexadecimal value. This key is stored in the RGSS dll, and it can be modified with a simple hexedit when the dll is unpacked. So, the idea is to create a custom rgssad compressor allowing encryption with different keys, and modifing a RGSS dll with the new key used for encrypting the rgssad. But you will need to pack the RGSS dll with a PE packer for example, because if the RGSS dll is not packed it would be very easy to find the new key and with it decrypting the rgssad file.
Also, for a better protection you will need to encrypt the save files, and to clean the $RGSS_SCRIPTS variable, because it still can be accessed by seeing the Game.exe memory.

To decrypt, take the following steps:
if the executable packer used is popular:
  - just use one of the equally popular unpackers
else:
  - run game normally (or maybe in a vm if it's one of the more annoying PE packers), then dump the memory of the dll, since it's decrypted in memory

- if only the key was changed you can find it at an essentially fixed adress in memory and use your tried and tested decrypter with the new key
alternatively:
- all scripts will be in memory, in plaintext or as an abstract syntax tree (ruby is open source so you can take a look at the format of the latter) and it doesn't matter if you delete the $RGSS_SCRIPTS variable (the editor uses it, by the way, so in order for enterbrain to "fix" this, they'd have to patch the whole program, which is no small undertaking)

Quote:
I could go on like this, but as you can see. In order to keep my players faithfully and trustworthy, I need to encrypt my game. People are bad by nature, if they get the chance...

I'm no expert in online games, but I once read an interesting article about the design of such games. Basically you should never trust the client. Ever. Ideally the client portion should only do rendering and send the user input to the server. The 'encryption' that comes with many online games is essentially a rootkit that breaks most accessibility tools in order to prevent you from forging the input. (which would allow you to write bots and so on)
I don't believe that most MMORPGs actually work this way (since it costs $$$ to do more calculations on the server), but I'd advice you against trusting the client anyway. Oh, and don't fuck with your paying customers by installing a rootkit on their pc. :)


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    delaPipol
  Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:13 pm
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Great news, vgvgf. That information will be useful for a nice, richer game support, playing or data import in free, open source software related or other closed source solutions (RPG Advanced Editor, EasyRPG). Marshal serialized format of the game data of XP/VX is a piece of cake (in comparison with RPG Maker 2000/3 data format). RGSSAD/2A was the last frontier. Now, everything is possible. Thank you for bring us the info.

Edit: I just reviewed the app and it's wxWidgets based! I can translate it into English/Spanish and recompile it for Windows (and for GNU/Linux, too, because wxWidgets is cross-platform, by removing commctrl.h and windows.h dependencies for ugly win32 resources, heheh) !
Just curious.


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    AzorMachine
  Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:24 pm
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Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
vgvgf wrote:
King Kadelfek wrote:
Thank you, Vgvgf.
Thanks to leexuany too.
Well, thanks only leexuany for this, I just presented this here, and nothing more.
computerwizoo7 wrote:
Nooooooo!!!!
what the hell is this!
I don't want people cracking open my game!
Don't worry about this too much, you will be able to protect your game(Not 100% protection, no method can do that), just let me finish a tutorial on how to protect a game against this.


Please read my PM ^^
I know a way of avoiding the RGSSAD Extractor ^^ :biggrin:


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    Daxis
  Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:22 pm
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I think that KGC software has a couple of scripts that are meant to protect against things like this.

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    SolstICE
  Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:26 pm
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why would you try to unencrypt peoples games they worked hard on and post how to do it for everyone here? thats a pretty asshole thing to do

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    Zeriab
  Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:03 am
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Der Drake is completely right.
As long as the game got to decrypt the data to be able to use it you can use the game to decrypt the game.

From a practical perspective accept that people WILL be able to decrypt your game.

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    AzorMachine
  Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:52 am
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Daxisheart wrote:
I think that KGC software has a couple of scripts that are meant to protect against things like this.


It consists on a program, that changes de adress of the scripts file, to a diferente file, with a randomic name.
I tested it with RGSSAD, and it was protected :thumb:


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    AzorMachine
  Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:36 pm
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Well, so i will put a Game of mine here, protected, with this engine ^^

If someone there, decrypt it, i will jump from the Mt.Everest =X

Link : http://www.4shared.com/file/81579250/c5 ... t_it_.html


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    Davey
  Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:30 pm
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Arbiter wrote:
Truth is though is that there will always be a way to decrypt it, changing the file name even with a random name will not fully protect against this as there is nothing stopping people searching for specific information within a file no matter it's name or calling a file from it's run queue.

It may be decryptable, but not every noob that has access to a random pre-made decrypting application can decrypt it :smile:

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    Diedrupo
  Tue Jan 20, 2009 5:12 pm
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I really don't think this is something you have to worry about unless for some reason your game becomes really popular, and you happen to have used a lot of original resources (and that is not the case for 99.99% of you). Then you might get a little upset. People dealt with it in the RM2K/2K3 era with unencrypted projects, they can deal with it today.


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    vgvgf
  Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:20 pm
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@AzorMachine, well, how to say this? But, start jumping from Mt. Everest. I just decrypted the Game.rgssad with WX RGSSAD, whitout any complication. Also, if you are planning to change the scripts file name, don't include it in the Game.ini!
Quote:
[Game]
Library=RGSS102J.dll
Scripts=Data/DMTWEIOQMPELITKXNBUQVKUFKQRDVCOIDBHDFHSLScripts.rxdata
Title=Decrypt it !
RTP1=Standard
RTP2=
RTP3=


@Der Drake, I agree with you in many points, but however some protection can be made still. 100% protection can't be done, but 95+%/99+% yes. Most people doesn't know how to use most methods you mentioned, so most people can be unable to extract something from a game with a simple protection system. But the things one can do for protecting RMXP/VX are really complicated... Maybe rewriting the entirely RGSS Player and Library and changing the encryption methods will stop this, but that's really complicated.

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    legacyblade
  Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:17 am
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Reives wrote:
hima wrote:
The only thing I don't like about this decryption is that my bad coding habits will be exposed! :(

^Amen. :c


lol, some of us already know your bad coding habits, by betatesting for you :P

But seriously people, if someone wants to rip your graphics, there's nothing you can do about it. There is no such thing as perfect and uncrackable code, and no amount of anti piracy techniques will change that. Let's face it, we're using RMXP for the soul reason that it's easier to use than coding our own software. This is a hobby, one which some of you might be making a small profit off of by selling RMXP games. The only plausible reason I can find to decrypt a project file is to learn how the producer did something. Those who use decryption programs on RM projects to steal graphics are nothing but n00bs who probably won't get past the first release of their demo before giving up. So don't stress out about this, just make your game, and don't put countless anti piracy measures in that make it heck to play your game. Most RM users aren't out to steal your sprites, but to play your game, so don't make it difficult for them just to prevent a few @$#holes from stealing your sprites.

Besides, you should spend more time MAKING your game, than trying to keep people from stealing what you've made.


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    MukanshinBlack
  Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:15 pm
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legacyblade wrote:
Besides, you should spend more time MAKING your game, than trying to keep people from stealing what you've made.


I think this decryption is worse for people making commercial games. Someone is going to crack it open and pass it out around the internet and you make significantly less money.

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    JoshieBoy
  Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:27 pm
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MukanshinBlack wrote:
legacyblade wrote:
Besides, you should spend more time MAKING your game, than trying to keep people from stealing what you've made.


I think this decryption is worse for people making commercial games. Someone is going to crack it open and pass it out around the internet and you make significantly less money.


Agreed. This falling into someone who wants to deliberately crack open commercial games to get your resources would cause a problem, but there isn't much we can do about it now. If you prevent this decrypting program from cracking open peoples project, they will just create another one. You cannot defend yourself nor your project against a skilled hacker once it has been put on the internet.


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    Zeriab
  Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:35 am
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A more interesting question to discuss is how tackle the problem. Not from a technological point of view. The project can be cracked and that's that.
I encourage a discussion on to tackle the situation with that as a fact.
For commercial projects. The act of decrypting or cracking the game in itself does not mean less money.
You would most likely be after as much money as possible.
Maybe having a mechanism where people who have a cracked version buys the game are forgiven is a nice idea. Maybe it won't make any difference or maybe it will make you earn less money. I don't know.
I do believe that if you treat the customer as the enemy the customer will behave as an enemy. Push gently in the direction of going legit. Lure with goodies. Marketing and PR.

What possibilities are there? What mechanisms can be used?
Dealing with commercial and non-commercial projects are surely different in many areas and they can have very different goals. That's also possible between commercial projects and non-commercial project as well.

I believe such a discussion can be much more rewarding.

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    Akamarutsu
  Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:34 pm
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It's nice to get resources out of this, but damn I wish i could decrypt the rxproj file too. I wanna see how things in some people's games work.


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    Ellie
  Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:41 pm
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Then ask the ones who made the games? If they are unwilling to tell you then it's pretty sure they wouldn't want you decrypting it anyway.


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    Sailerius
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:41 pm
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Exactly. The fact remains that you do not have the right to decrypt someone else's project, whether it's to learn or to steal resources. The very fact that they willingly encrypted their project means that they have taken away others' right to unlock it. If they left it decrypted, then it would be a different matter altogether. They might choose to release their resources willingly or, God forbid, you PM/email them to ask how they created X system or if you could use Y resources.


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    feralninja
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:46 pm
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I love this thing, i was able to decrypt my first game. =) (Wich has a few graphics that were great...)

On the other hand, it's evil towards most game makers....
Hmmm, Can't a coder or something encrypt a game and put a password system on it?


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    Ellie
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 5:49 pm
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That;s essentially what encryption does.


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    feralninja
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:08 pm
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I actually meant a password system upon the current system, first it checks if your the owner, wich is nullified by this program, and then asks for a personal password of some sorts.

No matter what we do though, there will always be people who will create things to ''hack'' the games.


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    Mr_Smith
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:48 pm
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Me(tm), I dont agree with you. Not all of the noobs who say they want to learn from a project, are noobs who steal the stuff out of it. For an example, I also decrypted a few games to see the mechanics behind it. Now don't ban me or something, Dissonance did it as well, just to see the systems behind it and how far it goes. I dont name the games, because I dont want to let other know it, but its not that bad. Also most of the people who are smart enough to use this programm, and that says alot, know that if they use the resources in their own game, they will get caught if they release it. And I think most noobs who dont know that, also dont know about this programm.
Cheating, yes in an ORPG or MMORPG it's a big problem, but in your standard offline RPG, why do you care if someone cheats? Most of the people here create RPG's because they like it or need a portfolio for their future careers or stuff. If you like creating a RPG, you do it for yourself and not for others. You just release it because you want to see if your work is appreciated and what you can improve more by the comments.
I think it's a step in the future for RPG Maker XP, and maybe it's best to know that others can decrypt your game so you can protect yourself? I already read the suggestion of just adding an user agreement to the project thread, so that no one has the right to decrypt it and steal the resources.

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    Sailerius
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:31 pm
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Quote:
Me(tm), I dont agree with you. Not all of the noobs who say they want to learn from a project, are noobs who steal the stuff out of it. For an example, I also decrypted a few games to see the mechanics behind it. Now don't ban me or something, Dissonance did it as well, just to see the systems behind it and how far it goes. I dont name the games, because I dont want to let other know it, but its not that bad. Also most of the people who are smart enough to use this programm, and that says alot, know that if they use the resources in their own game, they will get caught if they release it. And I think most noobs who dont know that, also dont know about this programm.

You didn't address my point. The act of the creator encrypting their game is implicitly revoking the user's right to reverse engineer it. If the creator wanted people to be able to learn from their game, then they would have left it decrypted. Furthermore, if you were that desperate, you could always contact the creator and ask them how they did something. Perhaps they'd even be nice enough to make you a demo since you were respectful enough to ask instead of decrypting the project they specifically chose to protect.

EDIT: Even if the protection is just rudimentary, could someone who's been working on a new type of protection release instructions on how to apply it? It won't stop people dedicated to breaking your project's protection, but if it'll stop script kiddies armed with just the RGSSAD decryptor, that's most of our problem solved.


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    Zeriab
  Mon Feb 09, 2009 9:02 pm
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Why does the act of the creator encrypted their game implicitly revoke the user's right to reverse engineer it? Also does it refer to the encryption or the game.
Either way I would argue that decrypting the encrypted archive is the same as reverse engineering. The case with learning how the game works is however indeed reverse engineering.

Now on a serious note I will very much advice against revoking or not granting the right for decrypting the encrypted contents. The reason is simply that the game itself decrypt the encrypted contents (or parts of it).
The very unfortunate result of not having the right is simply that the players can't play the game without using rights they don't have.
I guess you could try a clause about only allowing decrypting of encrypted contents with the provided software.

All protection I have seen either can be breached through already existing tools or decrease compatibility with operating systems other than Window XP.

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    Sailerius
  Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:33 am
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Quote:
Why does the act of the creator encrypted their game implicitly revoke the user's right to reverse engineer it? Also does it refer to the encryption or the game.

I'm working on the assumption that the creator, as the creator, possesses all the rights to their own creation. How they distribute these rights is a decision they can make freely.

If the creator chose not to give anyone the finished game, then he has not given anyone the right to play it.
If the creator posts the game on a forum welcoming and encouraging people to play it, then he has given everyone the right to play it.
If the creator gives the game to three of his best friends and tells them not to give the game to anyone else, then those three friends have the right to play the game and no one else. Certainly, the creator cannot *stop* them from giving the game to anyone else, but is this ethically wrong? Yes--they were NOT given the right to distribute the game to anyone else. This analogy extends to resources, as well.

If the creator chose to release his game without encryption and posted it on a public forum welcoming anyone to play with the game or its inner workings or to distribute freely the contents contained therein, then he has given everyone the right to do whatever they wish with the game and its contents.
If the creator does the same as above but states that he would not like the tilesets, which he commissioned and paid for, to be distributed or modified by anyone, then everyone still has the rights to whatever other resources are contained within, but NO ONE but the creator (and perhaps the artist he commissioned it from) has the rights to those tilesets.

However, if the creator of the game chose specifically to encrypt his game, then that is implicitly reserving the right to the game's unencrypted contents to the creator. The conscious act of protecting the game from decryption is denying ANYONE ELSE the right to decrypt it. Whether or not they proceed to do so is irrelevant; you might argue that decryption is inevitable, but that doesn't change the fact that they do not have the right to do so.

In summary, whether or not decryption can be stopped is a moot point to my argument. The fact remains that if the creator distributes his game, encrypted, then no one has the right to decrypt it and the very act of doing so is a violation of the creator's, the possessor of all rights to the creation, rights.


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    Zeriab
  Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:53 am
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I do not at all agree with you since you cannot play encrypted games without decrypting at least parts of it. If you are denying people decrypting at all then you are practically denying people from playing the game.

You can say that creator encrypting his game implicitly denies anyone else the right to decrypt it, but at th same time if the creator release the game for people to play he implicitly grants all rights necessary for playing the game which includes the right for decrypting the game or at least the needed parts of it.
We now have conflicting implied rights and that's a problem which basically boils down to whether the player is allowed to play the game or not. If the player is allowed then the players must have the right for decrypting the necessary parts of the encrypted contents. It is as simple as that.

Don't take this the wrong way. I am all in for creators protecting their resources if the they want to. I just want them to be careful in how they do it. I dislike motion of finding new ways of protecting XP/VX games as experience has shown there is a much higher chance of bothering legit users than actually protecting the games.

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