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    Nathaniel3W
  Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:20 pm
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- and is there anything the community can do to help?


Let me propose something: Let's resurrect the HKCP. For everyone who completes a full Himeko Sutori spritesheet (I'll post the template if you're interested) then I'll donate two of mine. I've got male and female versions of plate armor, leather armor, robes in two colors, a whole bunch of hairstyles in different colors with interchangeable bangs. I've got weapons, child-size sprites (with hair and clothes), and a skeleton. Anyone interested?

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    Amy
  Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:38 pm
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That sounds great. I don't know why the hkcp ever disappeared - certainly don't know why it was always in a private board.

I'm not too good at pixel work, but maybe we could do it as a learning kind of contest, like the 2008 pixel war.


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    Nathaniel3W
  Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:06 pm
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I wasn't around for the pixel war. What was the contest like? A friend of mine encouraged me to stage contests in order to get lots of good assets. Not saying that would be my only motivation for supporting a contest here... More assets are good for everyone, right?

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    Amy
  Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:39 pm
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It was a learning kind of contest where people just submitted pieces of art they made during it, but all while we ran it we were helping the learn how to make stuff. We got tons of people involved over it though. I don't think there were even any prizes, but it was a really good experience to learn in.


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    Amy
  Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:22 pm
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Sudden thought: HK was always designed for 3 tiles high in XP. That works out to 96px, which is two tiles high in RPG Maker MV. Which means, scale wise, HK are perfectly scaled for MV.

If we make tilesets, they should be dual use for either 48x48 2 tiles high or 32x32 3 tiles high.

Image


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    Nathaniel3W
  Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:38 am
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That's convenient. MV can help popularize an open-source sprite format.

One suggestion about HK though: The templates all seem to show the characters from straight-on. You can see the soles of their feet when they're walking towards you. Some of the better HK sprites that I've seen give the characters a closer to top-down camera angle. I think we should try to encourage that, maybe modify the templates from the beginning to force people in that direction.

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    coyotecraft
  Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:30 am
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It's not true perspective. The main thing is if you draw a box, the top and bottom will be the same size.
http://www.significant-bits.com/a-layma ... videogames
ImageImage

My 2 cents, HK looks terrible at 4 frames. I believe the choppiness becomes more apparent the more detailed you get.


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    Amy
  Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:07 am
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I agree about the soles.

Now is the time to change it if we're going to.


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    coyotecraft
  Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:10 am
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Imo, you should just make a new template.
I can already see this new HKCP falling into the same problems the old one did. Once you guys get around to the tilesets there's going to be some disputes about projection styles. I don't think anyone really knew what to call it back then. Everyone called it 3/4 or top-down view. But they're oblique drawings which comes in different styles Cavalier, Cabinet, and Military. The angles are arbitrary for a tileset so assuming the Y and Z axis is share, a simple cube can be represented different ways.
ImageMy cubes sides are off by a pixel.

Cavalier is full size. So the Top and Side squares are the same size. Cabinet, the "receding" lines are halved, in so the top shorter. Military is just like Cabinet only the vertical lines "walls" are halved so the floor or tops aren't distorted.

We never really established what we wanted the HK tiles to use consistently. That's why you never really saw any down poses. It would mean, laying down, the character would be halved or stayed the same length. I believed we leaned more towards cavalier but the tops of circular objects like pots and fountains were always distorted into ovals somewhat intuitively with what we though looked right. I vaguely remember Venitia suggesting the tops be shorted by 1/4 or something; but it was a long time ago. I might be an idiot too.


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    coyotecraft
  Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:03 pm
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I'd also encourage setting achievement goals. Instead of letting people make random characters, create a list of archetypes that people will know how to use. Guards, Servants, Scholars, Merchants. Really direct people's focus. Ok, for the forest we need Flora and Fauna. Modern characters for modern buildings ect...

I mean it's just not very fruitful when one person is making a western desert town and another person is making Roman Gladiators.


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    Nathaniel3W
  Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:34 pm
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Hey coyotecraft, thanks for the info on projection and perspective etc.

I think an agreed-on style would be helpful and generic RPG characters would be easily repurposed for anyone's game. I think if we just agree on a standard (especially for the perspective angle, and I'm partial to the cavalier style), then we would be off to a good start. One thing we might do is just release a small png file and say "This is the shape of a circle drawn on the ground. This is a one-unit cube. This is a refrigerator two cubes high." And then we just apply that same perspective to the characters.

But why do you propose starting a new template entirely? Do you just not like bigger sprites that don't have many frames? I'm not as disgusted as some people are by the ABAC walking frames. But if someone out there really doesn't like it, then it's only a matter of making one more frame (and then mirroring it) to get real 4-frame animation. If we add more frames than that, then I think we start to leave the realm of what hobbyists are capable of working on. I think if we fix the soles and maybe add another walking frame, then HK would be a great template. And there are tons of HK poses already out there.

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Last edited by Nathaniel3W on Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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    coyotecraft
  Tue Oct 13, 2015 8:47 pm
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The limbs are too robotic. Probably has to do with the arms swinging over a bigger distance. But they're also more defined which makes it weird how the knees and elbows are stiff.
Image
I roughed in a few extra frames for a 8 frame walk cycle.
Image
But you're right, adding frames just makes it that much harder.

Edit: And after seeing your tactical game with the units walking in place, the 4 frame animation kinda works better in that situation.


Last edited by coyotecraft on Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Acolyte
  Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:59 am
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I have an older 8-frame template you guys could use if you want.

Image

Image

http://rmrk.net/index.php?topic=49486.0

I would also suggest creating individual parts as opposed to entire sprites. It breaks up the work load for everyone, and maximizes customization.


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    Amy
  Thu Oct 15, 2015 7:04 am
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Makes sense, although for usability I'd still like to combine those parts into preset characters as well.


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    Nathaniel3W
  Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:34 pm
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That 8-frame walking animation is smooth, but it still has the head-on problem that HK does: it shows the soles of the feet, and just doesn't look top-downish. I tried checking out your link to rmrk.net hoping to see more of the sprite sheet, but the link was broken. And how would it look in MV? It looks a little low-res for use there, but I can't be sure without seeing it in place.

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    Amy
  Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:54 am
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There are always templates like the Geredreth (or ones despain has done since then) - they are proper cavalier as far as I can tell.


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    Sal-O-Mac
  Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:52 pm
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Sooo fun fact: The Half kaizer sprite was inspired by the sprites from Chrono Trigger, hence the bigger hands and feet . As such ,they are just about as "top down" as those sprites are. If you break down the animation frames for Crono's sprite for instance you'll see that his soles appear in the same poses as the Half kaizer's. I think you can let that little detail slide and let the user decide if they want to edit that out. Coyotecraft has got the right idea.

Speaking on the topic of usage, - That is, if you decide to use them- as the creator of the original template < yes I am the artist formally known as Showkaizer, I've always considered the template public domain at this point. As long as no one is taking credit for the creation of the template they are free to use it in commercial or non commercial products. Ofcourse this doesn't extend to the sprites anyone makes with it or the variations that Tana -aka Alisa Christopher- has made. You'll have to talk to her about that. This is mostly because the version of the template I use , which is relatively the same size is a bit different:

Image


This is my MV version of the template and probably won't be publicly released , mostly because it will probably contain more frames (still not completely sure about that).

At any rate, from my testing for MV, HK's seem to work best with three tiles high walls when using the MV size of 48x 48. Though you can get away with two tiles , and add extra height with the wall top autotile. As far as perspective , what I would do is look at the shape of the top down squares and circles in the default RTP and use those as a guide. This top-down view has always been tricky because ,as previously stated, it's orthographic and not truly isometric. Not only that but it's usually an "artist's eye" interpretation and not a completely accurate depiction of objects on a 3d plain. So I think there's a lot of room for inaccuracies IMHO. It just has to look good really =/

Anyway, that's my two cents, gonna stop typing now before this becomes a lecture. I wish I had some of the other templates that other people made in my stockpile of old stuff , but alas =/

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    Nathaniel3W
  Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:10 pm
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Wow. This is kind of like meeting a legend. Welcome back to the forum Sal-O-Mac. I love your template and I hope you like what I've been doing with it.

I was taking a look at Legend of Legacy screenshots the other day. I heard about it at Penny Arcade, probably would have never found out about it otherwise. It looks like a pretty game, and its perspective is roughly the same as Chrono Trigger's. I guess there are a lot of RPGs with that perspective out there, just not very many that low to the ground and orthographic.

You know, ZenVirZan [edit: It was Coyotecraft, and the link was http://www.mediafire.com/download/wdgh7 ... ection.rar] linked a pretty big collection of HK sprites for me in another thread. It had some pretty good stuff in there, but not Tana's work for some reason. Lots of people made a great front standing sprite, some even made a walking sprite and mirrored it. But very, very few people seem to have actually finished a whole sprite sheet. I'd love to see that change.

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    Sal-O-Mac
  Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:17 am
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Yeah , I think your game is looking pretty neat so far. It's surreal to see that old temp still being used. Honestly I had no idea that there were this many edits and pieces for it out there. Whatever you guys end up doing for this, good luck! and you definitely have my blessing! ... for what it's worth lol.

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    Amy
  Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:00 am
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Oh hey, welcome back sk. This is a real blast from the past.

Yeah about... five or six years ago now there was a project here to make an rtp using hk sprites. It actually got pretty far, but I don't have a credits list, so don't want to just throw all of the resources out there.


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    Sal-O-Mac
  Tue Oct 20, 2015 5:21 am
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Thanks! I actually made this account in 2013 I think but I haven't crawled out of the woodwork until MV came about. Were you always princess Amy or did you go by another handle in the ol RMXP.net days?

But yeah, I think in that case you're probably better off starting from scratch. I'm not really working with the original HK as I said earlier, but they -and my new edit- are around the same size so My tile sets could still work. We'll have to see , I'm sure people will be fine with the MV RTP package for quite a while as I hear it's quite extensive, so the good thing is it'll be a while before people get tired and look for something else.

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    Nathaniel3W
  Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:46 am
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Well Princess Amy, I'm worried that among the small currently active population of HB Games, you and I might be the only ones interested in HK sprites. :down:

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    Acolyte
  Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:35 am
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I've been working on some templates that I was going to keep for personal use, but if you guys want to use them, you can.

Image
Image


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    ShinGamix
  Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:37 pm
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Would this need windowskins or something i could make for the system?


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    Nathaniel3W
  Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:41 pm
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I don't think anyone would complain if you wanted to make and share assets of any kind.

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    Shanenopolis
  Wed Jan 06, 2016 9:34 am
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For what it's worth, I think the Kaiser template could use some improvement. Here is a walk cycle I made for a recent commission (not free for use) that uses the same number of frames, yet doesn't look nearly as robotic.

ImageImage


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    Alisatana
  Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:39 am
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Sal-O-Mac wrote:
Speaking on the topic of usage, - That is, if you decide to use them- as the creator of the original template < yes I am the artist formally known as Showkaizer, I've always considered the template public domain at this point. As long as no one is taking credit for the creation of the template they are free to use it in commercial or non commercial products. Ofcourse this doesn't extend to the sprites anyone makes with it or the variations that Tana -aka Alisa Christopher- has made. You'll have to talk to her about that.


;p I've also released all of my HK work work as public domain; I figure, share and share alike, ya know. Princess Amy and CoyoteCraft already saw, but if anyone needs the link to my collection of stuff it's http://alisachristopher.deviantart.com/ ... -483796759

I know for my part of why I stopped working on HKs was the amount of detail was a bit daunting, especially with the tilesets. Kaizer(Sal) always had such an awesome painterly style to pixel art shading that drove me absolutely nuts to try and reproduce.
It's part of the reason why in my new template, I'm limiting the amount of shades of any given color; I find I can better suggest details without spending forever actually putting in those details.


PS, long time no see Sal

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    JoyS
  Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:03 pm
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Image

Working on some less big-eyed, more expressive templates for my game, already started on the male waaaay back in the day with this guy:
Image

Anyone want these? if so I'll finish up the shading and release a blank version.


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